Chinese Speaking - Shanghainese vs Cantonese - Page 3 -

> Learning Chinese > Non-Mandarin Chinese
Shanghainese vs Cantonese
Home New Posts

Login: Pass: Log in or register for standard view and full access.





Page 3 of 4 < 12 3 4 >






zixingche -



Quote:

I think if HK was never a British colony and if there wasn't a large oversea Cantonese speaking
community, the status of Cantonese would probably be the same as Shanghainese.

I definitely agree, but I think the most important point is that the vast majority of HK people
and oversea Cantonese speakers do not speak Putonghua/Mandarin.

There is a massive difference between Cantonese in mainland China, and Cantonese in HK and the
overseas Chinese. In mainland China it's just another local dialect/language, just like
Shanghaiese, Chengduhua etc, used by native speakers in informal situations.

This is from the wikipedia article on Standard Cantonese (disscussion page):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Standard_Cantonese



Quote:

Quote from Cultural role: Cantonese enjoys a standing slightly inferior to Mandarin but much
superior to other varieties of Chinese in China. This is seen in Guangzhou where announcements in
the public transport are made in both Mandarin Chinese and the local lingua franca Cantonese. Not
even Shanghainese enjoys this privilege in Shanghai, the largest and arguably the wealthiest city
in China. end quote.

Does Cantonese really have a higher standing in Guangzhou than Shanghainese in Shanghai? I think
there should be more to back up this statement. The example given about public transport
announcements is not very convincing as it is probably for the benefit of non-Mandarin speaking
Hong Kong people. I think outside of the Cantonese speaking areas Cantonese is largely irrelevant,
it's just another dialect from another part of China, nobody would expect a non-native to
understand or speak it. Although amongst the non-Mandarin dialects, Cantonese has more exposure,
due to the existence of Hong Kong.

The first paragraph (in italics) was probably written by people from HK, they seem to have a
greatly inflated sense of the importance of Cantonese relative to other Chinese
dialects/languages. I wonder has anyone got any comments?



Pleco Software Learn Chinese with our Dictionaries for Palm and Pocket PC.
Learn Chinese in China Learn to speak Chinese 1MonthChinese.com -Mandarin School in China.
Chinese Textbooks Wide range, cheap, varied languages. Also Chinese cartoons, toys, gifts.
Study Chinese in Beijing Affordable Mandarin language courses at BLCU with ChinaUnipath.com.
HNHSoft Dictionary Learn Chinese on Smartphone and PDA with real person's voice.
XueXueXue IQChinese Get beyond the plateau.Take your Mandarin to a new level.
Chinese in Lijiang Short term Chinese study in a beautiful town with a focus on daily life.
MandarinTube Chinese Access to current everyday Chinese language and culture, 24/7.
Learn Chinese Homestay Chinese course, cultural activities & volunteer events in China.
Learn Chinese Online 1-on-1 instant tutoring, diverse courses, native teachers. FREE trial now!
Nihao Chinese Progam Free one-on-one Chinese lesson. Win 5-years of free lessons now!


About Ads (and how to hide them) -- Your message here









zixingche -



Quote:

Shanghainese, which has no dictionaries, no films, no songs

Err...there are Shanghainese dictionaries, and the local trad operas are in Shanghainese or Wu.
Anyway nearly everything relating to or in Cantonese originate from HK, where it has
standard/official status.




Quote:

...I've seldomly had a Shanghainese tolerate me trying to speak Shanghaihua.



Quote:

...but i do hear a lot that the shanghainese are very proud and probably wouldn't take too well to
a foreigner trying to speak their language.

Is this because they don't want outsiders speaking their language, so they can keep it as a sort
of secret code they can use amongst themselves?










Ian_Lee -

Maybe I sound chauvinistic, but Cantonese is more persuasive than other dialects including
Shanghaiese.

In SE Asia, Cantonese was actually not as popular as other dialects. For example, in Philippines,
Indonesia, many parts of Malaysia and Singapore, the Chinese immigrants and descendants are all of
southern Fujian origin.

But decades afterwards, a lot of these ethnic Chinese feel more comfortable with Cantonese than
Xiamenhua.

And in 1949-50, hundreds of thousands Shanghaiese fled to HK. But decades afterwards, they and
their descendants all become Cantonese speakers.

What I see is that Cantonese culture is more encompassing than just films and books. In fact,
other cultural aspects like Cantonese restaurants have penetrated to every part of China or
actually every part of the world.

And other factors like that the Pearl River Delta is always a magnet for people from other
provinces to seek jobs there. After staying there for years, naturally they have acquired certain
degree of Cantonese proficiency.










zixingche -



Quote:

Maybe I sound chauvinistic, but Cantonese is more persuasive than other dialects including
Shanghaiese.

Do you mean more widespread? Cantonese is certainly more widespread, due to non-mandarin speaking
HK people and to non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers overseas.



Quote:

In SE Asia, Cantonese was actually not as popular as other dialects. For example, in Philippines,
Indonesia, many parts of Malaysia and Singapore, the Chinese immigrants and descendants are all of
southern Fujian origin.
But decades afterwards, a lot of these ethnic Chinese feel more comfortable with Cantonese than
Xiamenhua.

I’m not sure this about this, do you mean they prefer Cantonese to Min dialects? It could be to
do with the influence of HK films and pop music



Quote:

And in 1949-50, hundreds of thousands Shanghaiese fled to HK. But decades afterwards, they and
their descendants all become Cantonese speakers.

This happens with immigrants anywhere, nothing to do with Cantonese as such.




Quote:

What I see is that Cantonese culture is more encompassing than just films and books. In fact,
other cultural aspects like Cantonese restaurants have penetrated to every part of China or
actually every part of the world.

All the different cusines in China can found all over China. Cantonese cuisine has spread around
the world because most migrants were from Cantonese speaking areas and they opened restaurants in
other parts of the world. Again nothing to do with Cantonese culture as such, if in the past large
numbers of unskilled emmigrants came from another part of China, then another regional cuisine
would have been found overseas.



Quote:

And other factors like that the Pearl River Delta is always a magnet for people from other
provinces to seek jobs there. After staying there for years, naturally they have acquired certain
degree of Cantonese proficiency.

Same again, Cantonese just happens to be the local dialect/language. Anyone who moves to a new
area would soon pick up the local dialect/language, whatever the area/region and dialect/language.










zixingche -

Instead of editing my last post, I'll add to it here:



Quote:

Maybe I sound chauvinistic, but Cantonese is more persuasive than other dialects including
Shanghaiese.

Do you mean more widespread?
Cantonese is certainly more widespread, due to non-mandarin speaking HK people and to non-mandarin
speaking Cantonese speakers overseas.

Or do you mean Cantonese itself has qualities or characteristics which people find attractive or
appealing, which causes people to want to learn it, or that it has spread to other regions because
of these reasons?
The reason Cantonese outside of mainland China has the status it has is to do with HK, and the
emmigration of non-mandarin speaking HK people and non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers,
particularly to Western countries. It has nothing to do with Cantonese itself.










Ian_Lee -

Zixingche:

I think you have the misconception that Cantonese is popular because HK was a British colony. But
in reality that is far from the truth.

Chinese language did not become an official language in Hong Kong until the early '90s. Many
Middle and High Schools didn't even treat Chinese language as a compulsory subject back then.
Frankly the British didn't care what kind of Chinese language the people used in Hong Kong.

And even after '97 Cantonese has never been regarded as the only official language in Hong Kong.
Formally Chinese is regarded as an official language -- but it never specifies what spoken
language that is. So actually Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghaiese, ......are all official languages
in HK. If you go to court and you don't know Cantonese, the court is obliged to provide you with
an interpreter.

In fact, during HK's history, Cantonese has never been given any importance. Unlike Taiwan's KMT
administration which forced Mandarin on locals, HK government (pre or post '97) never enforces
Cantonese on its population. For example, the Middle School that I went to used Mandarin as the
medium of instruction.

So why can Cantonese thrive despite such neglected status? Most likely due to its vitality.

Why are overseas Chinese in SE Asia familiar with Cantonese? As you said, it is owing to HK's pop
culture from media like songs and films. But throughout the '60s and '70s, Taiwan's Mandarin pop
culture like songs were even more popular in SE Asia.

Your assumption that any immigrants or workers who choose Pearl River Delta as place of residence
or workplace will naturally learn some Cantonese. That is not definite. As our fellow posters have
discussed, those outsiders from other provinces who choose Shanghai to work or reside hardly know
any Shanghaiese even after lengthy stay.

I guess Shanghaiese is "exclusive" -- don't like non-Shanghaiese to learn their language while
Cantonese is "inclusive" -- welcome anyone to know their language.










zixingche -



Quote:

I think you have the misconception that Cantonese is popular because HK was a British colony. But
in reality that is far from the truth.

What I mean is that Cantonese is “popular” (widespread) not because HK was a British colony as
such but because the use of Mandarin for official purposes, in the media and as the language of
education was never imposed as it was outside the control of the PRC. My point is that Cantonese
has spread to other regions because of emigration of non-mandarin speaking HK people and
non-mandarin speaking Cantonese speakers.


Quote:

Chinese language did not become an official language in Hong Kong until the early '90s. Many
Middle and High Schools didn't even treat Chinese language as a compulsory subject back then.
Frankly the British didn't care what kind of Chinese language the people used in Hong Kong.
And even after '97 Cantonese has never been regarded as the only official language in Hong Kong.
Formally Chinese is regarded as an official language -- but it never specifies what spoken
language that is. So actually Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghaiese, ......are all official languages
in HK. If you go to court and you don't know Cantonese, the court is obliged to provide you with
an interpreter.
In fact, during HK's history, Cantonese has never been given any importance. Unlike Taiwan's KMT
administration which forced Mandarin on locals, HK government (pre or post '97) never enforces
Cantonese on its population. For example, the Middle School that I went to used Mandarin as the
medium of instruction.
So why can Cantonese thrive despite such neglected status? Most likely due to its vitality.

Whether official or not, Cantonese has been and still is the native language of the majority of HK
people. I think you might have underestimated the use of Cantonese amongst the Chinese population
of HK. I went to junior school in HK in the 70s, for the Chinese everything was in Cantonese.
Languages thrive because people use it, As far I know there wasn’t restrictions on HK people
speaking Cantonese, the HK government (pre or post '97) just didn’t need to enforce Cantonese on
its population, they spoke Cantonese anyway.


Quote:

Your assumption that any immigrants or workers who choose Pearl River Delta as place of residence
or workplace will naturally learn some Cantonese. That is not definite. As our fellow posters have
discussed, those outsiders from other provinces who choose Shanghai to work or reside hardly know
any Shanghaiese even after lengthy stay.
I guess Shanghaiese is "exclusive" -- don't like non-Shanghaiese to learn their language while
Cantonese is "inclusive" -- welcome anyone to know their language.

Sorry, I should have said some migrants might pick up the local dialect to some extent, but the
point is that it just happens to be local dialect/language.
If more migrants learn Cantonese than Shanghainese, then it might have something to do with the
fact that it might be harder to learn Shanghainese informally because of the reluctance of
Shanghainese speakers to use Shanghainese with outsiders.










Cirrus888 -

English was the only official language in HK pre-97 although it was widely accepting that people
had to use it in conjunction with english. Post-97 English, Cantonese and Mandarin become the
official languages.

Ex HK civil servant.










Cirrus888 -

What I can't edit posts?

The cantonese announcements made on public transport in shenzhen and guangzhou city are definitely
for the benefit of HK people who travel to these places in droves particularly during the weekends
and holidays. The fact that guangzhou province including Shenzhen has so much prosperity is due to
the proximity and influence of HK.

Even so guangdonghua is still only spoken by about 60% of the people I cam across in guangzhou and
a much lower percentage in shenzhen.










skylee -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Cirrus888

English was the only official language in HK pre-97 although it was widely accepting that people
had to use it in conjunction with english. Post-97 English, Cantonese and Mandarin become the
official languages.


I don't think so. The Official Languages Ordinance of HK (Cap 5) specifies that "The English and
Chinese languages are declared to be the official languages of Hong Kong for the purposes of
communication between the Government or any public officer and members of the public and for court
proceedings. (Amended 51 of 1995 s. 2)" .












All times are GMT +8. The time now is 04:50 PM.














Learn Chinese, Free Chinese Lesson, Learning Materials, Mandarin audio lessons, Chinese writing lessons, Chinese vocabulary lists, About chinese characters, News in Chinese, Go to China, Travel to China, Study in China, Teach in China, Dictionaries, Learn Chinese Painting, Your name in Chinese, Chinese calligraphy, Chinese songs, Chinese proverbs, Chinese poetry, Chinese tattoo, Beijing 2008 Olympics, Mandarin Phrasebook, Chinese editor, Pinyin editor, China Travel, Travel to Beijing, Travel to Tibet