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yonglin -

miffy2007, I feel really sorry for you. I can't believe you met so many of those arses.

Personally, I don't get why anyone would desire desire to go abroad in the first place if they're
not willing to accept (or at least learn about) any of the cultural particularities of the foreign
country.



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md1101 -

hey miffy im pretty shocked myself. come to think of it i know me and my mates in xi'an (2 years
ago) used to have bitching sessions about china. now i wonder if anyone overheard and got
offended. but the bitching was usually about queues or customer service. though at the end of the
day we always knew things were different in china and perceived rudeness in the west was not
necessarily rude in china. after about 4 months or so of being in china we all stopped whinging
and instead started bitching about all the other 'new' foreigners complaining about china.

anyway i hope you stop mixing with those tools in xi'an. i wouldnt help out anyone i just met
anyway. actually i've had people help me out in china with looking for apartments and so on and
now i wonder if i was ever thankful enough. come to think of it i don't think i was. the offers
for help in china come so often that you start to take it for granted. which is a real shame. i
think everyone here can take a lesson from this.










shanghaikai -

I hate these threads. It just makes me angry at everyone.










studychinese -



Quote:

I hate these threads. It just makes me angry at everyone.

The problem is that people are too discriminating in their hate. I despise all races, cultures and
creeds with equal vigor.










jeffofarabia -

I never really thought of laowai as a racist term. I just think that most Chinese people haven't
seen too many foreigners and they are surprised. They aren't venomous in their comments just
curious.










jonaspony -

Hey Miffy... thanks for the rave. How true.

I spent several months in a small remote Chinese town before I heard the term Laowai. Another
Westerner came to town and I was showing him around - where to have his photos processed, how to
catch the bus etc. He was a total jerk, acted like the great white sahib, ordering folk around.
That's the first time I heard the word, and I thought it totally appropriate.

The other foreigners I was with seemed to have the same notion, but because they were female it
wasn't quite so obvious. They would allow themselves to be feted and toasted at dinners, as if
they really had done something worthy of it. In the end, being the youngest and malest available,
I took to returning the toasts on their behalf. Then they criticised me for being drunk all the
time.

The next time I heard the term was in a back alley where I hoped to visit a friend. A young boy
raced into the alley, saw me, stopped, Laowai! and then scooted out again. Fair enough, I thought.
I have nearly scared some folk to death. A little 'laowai' in return is a small thing.

Going back to Beijing to study, and meeting a lot of expats there, they all bitched vehemently
against the Chinese. I may have understood what they were saying, but I never understood why they
bothered. Such a misguided sense of superiority!

Several folks have replied to you Miffy, I am glad that what you have written has hit a chord. I
hope you can carve out a good thing for yourself in Xi'an. I admire your spirit, and your style.
Don't let the wankers get you down. Huaqiao get it much harder than Loawai, probably without any
of the benefits. I hope it changes for you soon, and whatever you are hoping to achieve is
successful. Cheers ... Jonas

PS. I'd love to know what you are planning to do there. Feel like dropping me a line?










miffy2007 -



Quote:

Personally, I don't get why anyone would desire desire to go abroad in the first place if they're
not willing to accept (or at least learn about) any of the cultural particularities of the foreign
country.

yonglin: You were at 西安交大 recently, no? I wonder if you've met them? They also live in the
international student dorm. I had to go back to my previous posting and edit their details out
because it'd be too obvious!! Actually, they are not here for language and cultural immersion, but
for a new academic cooperative degree program between 西安交大 and a university in Europe.
Some are here because it's a cheap Masters program (in terms of tuition) compared to what schools
in UK and EU charge. One is hoping to leverage this "China experience" as a stepping stone for his
scholarship application (which he got) and boost his resume and publicity when he returns home to
open his own company. One explained that she wasn't here by choice because "the program takes
place in China so she has to come". I wasn't sure what she meant by that, I hope she wasnt duped
and forced to put in that application...

The program turns out to be a complete disaster both academically and administratively...

I'll live by your motto: 不管遇到什么困难，还得坚持下去



Quote:

hey miffy im pretty shocked myself. come to think of it i know me and my mates in xi'an (2 years
ago) used to have bitching sessions about china. now i wonder if anyone overheard and got
offended. but the bitching was usually about queues or customer service. though at the end of the
day we always knew things were different in china and perceived rudeness in the west was not
necessarily rude in china.

md1101, haha, customer service? Is there any in China? I often complain about it too. But by
foreigners bitching, I mean more like racist attack or making insinuating remarks about the whole
Chinese culture and race. For example, if you are angry about the service of a particular
individual, you should attack him directly, instead of saying "why are the Chinese so incapable of
doing this and that?" and let out a stream of complaints that is unrelated to the individual
concerned. I'm sure you know what I mean because that's usually how some foreigners bitch about
stuff. If I made the exact same statement but change Chinese to American (or insert whatever
nationality), wouldn't you be offended by my comment too? Foreigners here don't know I understand
English perfectly well so I often overhead them saying nasty things about Chinese people, at first
I feel very angry but I've heard it so many times that I'm pretty much numbed by it now.

And whenever foreigners bitch about the Chinese – you bet that their comments will be overhead
and *someone* will get offended. But the Chinese don't usually show it, either because they don't
speak English well enough (or just being shy) or that they don't want any confrontation (like me).
I've heard some foreigners here said some really nasty racist stuff, if they were in an Arab
country and make the same comments about the Arabs, I guarantee you that their visa will be
revoked. I remember when I was fixing my visa at the residency office in Damascus, one western guy
asked if there's any other way to speed up the resident visa application as he finds it annoying,
having to repeatedly fill out the same forms and information. The Syrian immigration officer just
answered him bluntly, "Yes, there is, an exit visa". I was like, way to go man!

Honestly though, I've lived in many, many developing countries, and I found that "expats" in China
(and maybe Dubai) tend to be the most immature and most unwilling to adjust their mentality and
attitude to their host country. Many speak Chinese well, but their cultural sensitivity and
open-mindedness are just not there. I've been wanting to find out why. I think part of the reasons
could be that many of them are quite young (or youngish), and that China is the first country
abroad away from home? My first abroad experience was to Morocco, when I was 17 years old. Even
though I was so young at the time but I don't remember myself being close-minded like some of the
foreigners in China though...and my experience was TOUGH!!!! In Xi'an, I often heard foreigners
say "but in the West, we do X, Y and Z" but they don't understand that they are NOT in the West
anymore...

Despite being a developing country, China is a relatively easy country for foreigners to live in
and still can maintain the kind of life style that they want – but this freedom should not be
abused to turn around to slam their host country. If an immigrant to the US keeps complaining
about his host country, I'll advise him to go home; so I don't think there should be a different
rule about foreigners bitching about China in China.

Those would likely get offended by rude remarks by foreigners are usually highly educated Chinese.
Those who don't get offended, even though someone say in their face "Chinese people stint" and
still go "hehe...", are, in my opinion, likely to be complete idiots, fools who have no sense of
shame, and stay around foreigners for motives other than pure friendship. Any normal and "real"
Chinese, if he/she overhears rude remarks, would stay away from foreigners for good. I know five
highly-educated locals here who document their experience/struggles with foreigners. They've all
been "burned" by foreigners at some point in their lives so they choose to interact with them as
little as possible. But when foreigners complain, they never think of the possibility that *some*
locals might understand and get offended. But I guess they've never thought about that because
what they think about is what China and Chinese people can do for them.



Quote:

after about 4 months or so of being in china we all stopped whinging and instead started bitching
about all the other 'new' foreigners complaining about china.

You know some said foreigner/expat is synonymous with "whiner". Having foreigner status, atleast
you have other means to complain or be treated better than the locals. But regular Chinese people,
especially peasants, don't have that privileges, like I said, they just endure the hardship, suck
it up and move on. They haven't gone mad like some of the foreigners here!!!!!



Quote:

anyway i hope you stop mixing with those tools in xi'an. i wouldnt help out anyone i just met
anyway. actually i've had people help me out in china with looking for apartments and so on and
now i wonder if i was ever thankful enough. come to think of it i don't think i was. the offers
for help in china come so often that you start to take it for granted. which is a real shame. i
think everyone here can take a lesson from this.

I always believe there's a certain goodness in each individual, if I can help them, why not? But I
think my experience with foreigners in Xi'an has changed my perception entirely, especially after
the incidents I described in my previous posting (I went back and deleted some of it as it gives
away certain people's identity). When someone say things like that to you (whom I considered as
friends), well, it really hurts but what can I do, I just take it as a lesson and move on. And
there are situations where I just simply can't avoid helping people, ie, when I'm asked in the
face or on the phone, am I supposed to just walk away or hang up the phone? Then it'll be me who's
being rude.

I wish I could stop mixing with foolish people too! No matter where I go, there seem to be a
tendency to attract the most bizarre occurrences. Like one time, I traveled from Syria to Lebanon,
and don't know how, I ended up in Hizbollah's stronghold in the Bekaa Valley. I was like a lost,
miserable looking puppy walking among men with AK-47s but people there were nice enough to show me
the way out...unharmed...I've had too many incidents like theset!! I'm glad that I'm alive at
all!!!










miffy2007 -



Quote:

I hate these threads. It just makes me angry at everyone.

shanghaikai: I feel the same too. I don't think the OP *really* wants to know people's opinion on
laowai, because it looks like he has already formed his preconceived notion. My apology for
prolonging this thread – but my examples are meant to show angry foreigners (some, not all are)
an "alternate" view about Chinese people. I will make this post (a rather long one) my closing
remarks. This discussion is getting old anyway...



Quote:

I never really thought of laowai as a racist term. I just think that most Chinese people haven't
seen too many foreigners and they are surprised. They aren't venomous in their comments just
curious.

jeffofarabia: you're right, it's not, but some angry person insist that it is...

For those who don't understand Chinese culture and language well enough, I'll reiterate:

Laowai is an informal/slang term used to describe foreigners in China. It is NOT an equivalent of
"Chink" or the N word. A close Western equivalent that I could think of is calling a French person
of Arabic descent "Beur". Some Americans would address Hispanic workers and people in general,
"Amigo". As someone said, laowai is used in the exact same way how gringo is used in the Latin
American/Hispanic context. In and of itself, it is not inherently racist or derogatory, and many
Chinese even use laowai as a term of endearment. Of course, just like many words, it can be used
maliciously, but it depends entirely on the tone and context. But when used on a daily basis,
locals almost always mean it in a neutral/descriptive way. Laowai can best be described as slang
word, not racial epithet.

If some foreigners still want to believe it otherwise, I can't help them with that. Just continue
to be an angry person, and be VERY afraid because every Chinese is out there to get them...someone
here called the Chinese "东亚病夫" as an answer to laowai – maybe he thinks he's smart and
all that; but it just shows how ignorant he truly is – he doesn't know anything about Chinese
culture and language at all!

I do understand sometimes being called "Laowai" can have lasting "psychological" impacts. But
considered this, almost all Asian American kids have experiences of being taunted at (ching
chong", "Chinese chicken", "chink", etc) when growing up in American schools - kids can be real
cruel. This is some very serious discrimination but you know what, most of them just let it go and
move on. Ignorant remarks are not worth being replied to anyway. Minorities living in the West
endure racist treatments all the time. But s#$t happens and the world can't be all rosy and
idealistic like you want it to be. It shouldn't stop people from enjoying and learning about other
cultures. Jerks are jerks and they come in all shapes, colors and forms. No matter how much the
world has evolved, we cannot get rid of racism entirely. This is the 21th century and hate
organizations like the KKK still exists.

If you keep getting angry and upset about some minute stuff, you risk seeing the fun side of
foreign traveling and cultural immersion. So don’t grumble, just go out and enjoy the sunshine.
An Egyptian friend once said, “there will always be evil and ugliness in the world, but it
depends whether you want to look at the trash or the trees”. Your willingness to understand,
respect and accept cultural differences determine how you will be treated and what your
experiences will be like in a foreign country. If you have it in your head that you’d be treated
badly because people X are racist, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will most likely be
treated the way you’ve imagined it to be. It’s true, because you’re looking for things to
happen so you can have something to complain about.

Like I said in my previous posts: RESPECT HAS TO GO BOTH WAYS. After all, you’re in other
people’s countries. And NO ONE can accuse of other races being more racist than they are because
they do X, Y and Z. We, as humans, have all contributed and spread hatred and ills to some degree.
Example, when foreigners slammed Chinese racist practices during the Qing Dynasty, they forgot
entirely the historical America’s Chinese Exclusion Act, Canada’s head tax on Chinese, etc.
Western moral righteousness of this kind angers people, especially third world people. Have
Western people not learned any moral lessons at all, after the mess that they created in the
Middle East????? Being Western/foreign does not necessarily give you a license to be a moral
authority to critize how other people live in their own countries.

Unfortunately, many foreigners who live in China fail to understand this concept and continue to
alienate those locals who show them goodwill. After almost three decades of the publication of
Edward Said's Orientalism, the world hasn't changed for the better. Orientalism is still alive and
thriving in this part of the world. It's a real shame that people think they can judge a culture
by completely taking it out of context. Nothing happens out of vacuum. Cultural and social
circumstances of a particular place shape who you are. If you were born in a competitive country
such as China, where upward mobility and access to social resources are SOLELY determined by exam
scores and connection, are you confident enough to say that you won't grow up to be like one of
those Chinese people whom you bitch about? No, some foreigners aren't interested in China, they
just want the Western transplant version of it – a China that is fabricated inside their head.

But then what I found so intriguing is that, once they have had their fills of western
convenience, ie, bars and clubbings, KFC, McDonald's, pizzas, and what not, they get sick of the
city and want to go to the countryside to see the peasants so they can experience what "real"
China is. But then once in the countryside, ladies bitch about dirty toilets, people don't wait on
line and random people saying hello etc. I mean, what exactly do you guys want in China? You can't
have your cake and eat it too! Could you please enlighten me?? I'm afraid no matter what Chinese
people do, it would never be good enough to make angry expats happy so they can stop bitching.
Another classic example: I know this western guy, one of those "yellow fever" type (sorry to say)
– he moved up north to Shanghai from Hong Kong because he said HK girls don't pay any attention
to him (because we Hong Kongers are used to seeing foreigners) but then once he got to Shanghai,
he said he's "so sick of" being approached "all the time" for "shady reasons"...but isn't that
exactly what he's always wanted? I mean his whole point of moving to Shanghai is because of THIS.
I'm not sure if he's just bragging or really genuinely hating the experience. I don't know what to
think anymore and I don't want to know.



Quote:

Going back to Beijing to study, and meeting a lot of expats there, they all bitched vehemently
against the Chinese. I may have understood what they were saying, but I never understood why they
bothered. Such a misguided sense of superiority!

jonaspony: but what are they bitch about though? I gather it's not about politics or human rights
or anything that is remoately benefitial to mankind



Quote:

Several folks have replied to you Miffy, I am glad that what you have written has hit a chord. I
hope you can carve out a good thing for yourself in Xi'an. I admire your spirit, and your style.
Don't let the wankers get you down. Huaqiao get it much harder than Loawai, probably without any
of the benefits. I hope it changes for you soon, and whatever you are hoping to achieve is
successful. Cheers ... Jonas

Thanks! I'm trying my best but there are times when I feel very exhausted, I feel like I'm
fighting two fronts - ignorant locals and angry/self-righteous expats. I never have to deal with
this kind of situation before. I've lived abroad the past 10 years of my life, mostly in the
Middle East, so I was an expat too but honestly, I never for once, talked bad about Arab locals. I
always think if I have problems with my host country, it must be because I have a problem adapting
to their way of life, it is not the fault of the host. Afterall, people have been living like this
before I came along, so what fault is theirs? I was reading some postings and several foreigners
keep stressing that white is the receiving end of racial discrimination in China. I almost felt
like crying because they don't know what I've been through. If they only knew...To make this kind
of comment is just insane and just plain jerks. Why don't they talk about the times when they do
receive favorable treatments, which are many? Do these people live in the same China that I'm
living right now?

I'll tell you what happened. I recently applied for a job at an art gallery in Shanghai. I am now
finishing my second masters, and I already had a masters from Georgetown foreign service school, I
spent many years living and working in the Middle East, and before I abandoned everything and
moved back to China, I was working a government job in Washingotn DC. I'm fluent in four languages
AND I'm only 29. In many ways, I'm lowering my expectations to start a new career in the art
field, nothing fancy, just a gallery assistant. So can you imagine the look on my face when they
tell me they ONLY want a foreigner. I said, I AM a foreigner in China; but no, they want a white
one. Maybe they think a white face would attract more customers into the shop. Turns out the white
guy they just hired speak almost no Chinese and a fresh grad that barely have one year of working
experience. I told them, "it's your lost, really because you don't know what type of clients I can
get you in Hong Kong". Two more experiences like this one - some ad plainly said that they want
foreigners. By foreigner, they don't mean Hong Konger, or Nigerian or Puerto Rican, they want a
white person. Is THIS the racism that some whtie people here are talking about??










renzhe -

Awesome rants, miffy. Thanks for sharing.










deezy -



Quote:

There is this British guy who posted this long statement about how Chinese were racist toward
foreigners during the Qing dynasty, but what he forgot to add is the way how the Brits treated
Hong Kong people. HK Chinese weren't allowed to live in certain areas (ie, the Peak) and they
remained second-class citizen under British rule. The passport they gave to HK people, the BNO, is
practically useless, yet, many people living under western colonial regimes simply endured,
without complaints.

Lmao...well, what the hell did he expect?

The British and Jewish Sassoon family were dumping opium in China to revalue the British pound.
Then waged the Opium War when China finally resisted...after which they colonized Hong Kong for a
century.

But, I guess the Chinese were the "bad racists" here? Because they had the gall to resist their
colonialist drug lords???

This whole completely Anglocentric superiority complex and incessant whining no matter what
happens (good or bad) is frankly all I've come to expect from the vast majority of Anglo ex-pats
in China, particularly young males...












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